You recorded ‘Submarine Bells’ after you were signed to a major label following the exceptional ‘Brave Words’ debut on Flying Nun, what inspired the record? What were you listening to at the time? What bands were you seeing? What was going on in the Phillipps’ household?

“I was 27 when we recorded ‘Submarine Bells’ and I’d already had nearly 12 years in the music business. It had been a rollercoaster ride and, having been based in London for some years by then, and having seen many fabulous international acts (Pixies, Gun Club, Einstürzende Neubauten, Suicide…), I was fully inspired. I was also going through a period of discovery in terms of the great popular music song-writers like Randy Newman, Scott Walker, Brian Wilson and Nick Drake, so I was trying to up my game.”

What was the indie scene in New Zealand like at that time? Who were your contemporaries? You’d already worked with Flying Nun, who were fast developing a wider reputation, what was it like moving on?

“The ‘80s independent music scene in New Zealand was extraordinarily vibrant and innovative – despite strong resistance from mainstream radio and much of the media. For such a small population, at that time, of little over three million people, there seemed to be hundreds of wonderful and exciting bands and many great song-writers. The Chills were lucky to catch the wave as representatives of that scene and take it overseas. Flying Nun had been the best possible nest but they were now at a stage when we were outgrowing their capabilities and it was mutually agreed that it was time to move on.”

The jump to a major must have changed your perspective on what was possible, how did that transition go? What was it like stepping onto a global stage?

“The discussions and negotiations with many possible labels went on for a long, frustrating time while we were stuck in London before Warner Brothers ultimately made the sensible call to soften the transition by feeding us into their machine through the Slash label – the theory being that it would be more like a Flying Nun situation and we could always have the backing of Slash if Warners got too busy with a major artist’s latest release.”

“By then the band had toured extensively through New Zealand, Australia, the UK, Europe and North America so we were already road-hardened and familiar, to some extent, with the world stage. But, of course, there was much to learn about the complexities and politics of the major label approach.”

How did you feel The Chills’ translation to other scenes affected what you were doing?

“By 1990 we had travelled and performed a lot. We did not have the financial means or inclination to put on an extravagant stage show but we were certainly a powerful live act that was being noticed and talked about. We learnt a lot from observing some of the artists we supported: Sugarcubes, The Damned, Lou Reed, Gun Club etc, but audiences found our low-key New Zealand approach a breath of fresh air and they reacted to us very warmly.”

‘Heavenly Pop Hit’ is a glorious slice of radio-friendly grandeur, what was your hope for the band? Instant pop star immortality? Or did you see a longer running road ahead?

“I was always thinking about the longer game. Any time I came up with a potentially successful single I hoped it might open doors to the next level. I thought we would establish ourselves as an enduring act that would be able to weather the storms of musical fads but I was wrong. I had long accepted that I did not have the charisma or personality to win over huge crowds but I thought our sheer quality might get us through and establish some sort of stability and financial security.”

It was two years before the release of ‘Soft Bomb’ and the band changed completely, what happened in that period?

“Some of the band were just worn out and they departed. We had achieved so much but all that was being revealed to us, as to our immediate future, was even harder work and possibly less reward. We were all young and communication was not great. It then became harder to find the right people who still believed in my dream as the initial excitement about The Chills was fading – just as we were ready to go to the next level. Fashions had changed and I had not kept up. Despite establishing a new, larger and loyal fanbase we were seen by many as a band that had been at our most exciting in the early ‘80s.”

You ended up working with Van Dyke Parks and Peter Holsapple, how was that experience?

“Although I don’t think Peter Holsapple remembered it, he had done a solo support for us some years before so there was already a link – and the R.E.M. connection also made sense. He was great to work with and was such a wonderful, warm and hilarious person but I think our slightly different tastes in music started to cause some strife. A small thing (like Peter being more of a fan of Big Star’s first two albums while I preferred their 3rd album) came to represent quite a bit more of a gulf in some of the underlying conflicts in the studio. Gavin MacKillop was a fine producer but, at times, I also felt pushed in uncomfortable musical directions by him. At the same time I learnt so much from the two of them and it was certainly my greatest learning experience in the studio up to that point. I learned that being forced out of one’s comfort zone could be a powerfully creative thing. And it was Peter’s previous connection with Van Dyke Parks which brought the latter on board. Unfortunately the rudimentary computerware involved with Van Dyke’s arrangement for my song, ‘Water Wolves’, meant that it was hard to communicate about the song as precisely as I would have liked but I do love what resulted – and it was wonderful to get to know Van Dyke and his wife and to now feel that I can call them friends.”

The resultant album is truly eclectic, what was going on in your head when you were putting it together? What were you listening to, experiencing?

“I was trying to stretch and grow as a songwriter. I had been almost obsessed with bootlegs of The Beach Boys’ unfinished ‘Smile’ album and I was also trying to create something huge. It was absolutely the wrong time to try and do that with all the major changes going on in the music industry and the resulting “hit-less” album ultimately got us dropped by Warner Brothers. And sadly I was also discovering, as I had before and have many times since, that some of my compositions which begin sounding like sure-fire hits can become the most prone to being problematic and, in some cases, they can barely make the album and only with a lot of frustrating extra work.”

It’s a very personal record, with some finely observed one liners, how does it feel hearing those things again all these years later?

“I usually take a break from listening to my recent recordings because the process of making them is so intense – so when I do listen to them again, maybe after many years, I am often startled by what I have said and what I have revealed. I do try to be as honest as possible with my lyrics but sometimes I can surprise even myself. I can also be very proud of what my younger self wrote and those ideas that I might never have these days.”

While you were touring the album, the relationship with Warner ended, what do you recall of that happening?

“The relationship with Warner Brothers, who had handled most of our case, ended while we were in the middle of the American ‘Soft Bomb’ tour (although we were not informed of that for a week or so) and this left us with the much smaller Slash label trying desperately to take over that major promotional campaign and salvage the tour. But, as we saw all around us on a daily basis, they were failing miserably. Plus there was already tension within the group as it became obvious that some people were just there for the job and that the common grounds of music were not, in some cases, as strong as had been first represented. The situation just became more miserable until I decided that, after thirteen years of this, I had had enough.”

Although the record was well received on release, it still feels like a buried treasure. How did that feel at the time? And how does that feel all this time later?

“I feel we came so close to breaking through to the next level during the Warner years but there were many factors which conspired against us. I am glad that many people have gone back to ‘Soft Bomb’ in particular to discover the many gems it holds and I am still very proud of both of those wonderful and unique albums. It is wonderful to see them now being given a second chance. It was a peak time in my life and I treasure the memories – good or otherwise.”

Martin Phillipps, Dunedin, New Zealand, November 2020.